Tyler Durden - Discussion Topic - Juggler Method.doc

**I know that Papa has taken a Juggler workshop a few months ago, and he tells me that this is the Juggler method. If this has been updated, it would be good if the more recent workshop dudes (sexpdx, bl, mmasters, etc) could post about the updated model.


-TD


_______


JUGGLER METHOD, BY JUGGLER:

This may be counter-intuitive to you, but you want the conversation about YOU. What interesting things you have to say, what stories you have to tell, what you think about her, your method of revealing dark secrets from a girl's subconscious, etc. Not about her. It's about you.

Talking about clothes, negging her, asking about her life etc. will work for a short time. But then she will see the pattern of what you are doing, she will see you working and she will shut you down. That way only works for chicks with a low self-esteem.

The fuel that drives a conversation is curiosity. You must always prepare for that to be present. Yes you can keep a conversation on life support by being curious about her. And if done well, it can work. But really, hot girls get talked up about themselves all the time. Many guys try the busting on her approach. Really beautiful women have been hit on by guys since they were thirteen. She can see you coming a mile away. You must turn the tables and get her curious about YOU, get her coming on to YOU.

Your instinct when you meet a girl should always be to hook her curiosity and have her asking you a question. That is the beginning of her chasing you. That is Juggler method.

That is actually not bad stuff. But you need to hook after her laugh. You did get a laugh here right?

You: "a small African country. I going to have to fill many positions in my new government. Let's see... (look at her appraisingly) What job would you be good for... (she is curious as to what you think she should do in your 'administration'. Stretch it out.) I think you would be my... minister of education."

Her: "Why education?"

You: "Just look at your fingers (take her hand). Go into palm reading or
jewelry powers routine.

Story telling works just the same way - you want her to ask to hear them. Figure out all your good material and find a way for her to work to discover it.

You do not want to EV her. You want HER EVing YOU. The purpose of EV is to find out a person's values and then appeal to those things. Let her be the one trying to align herself with YOUR values. You are the fucking prize. Then she will chase you, then she will close you.

-Juggler
 

I've tested Juggler method extensively (literally, for WEEKS), and have met and spoken with many students to get a good perspective on it.

In this post, I want to discuss my impression and views on:

-what it is
-why it works
-where do I disagree with Juggler
-what are the differences and similarities between what I do and what Juggler does

It would also be good to get Juggler in on this, if you're reading bro. If Juggler responds, I'll reciprocate by getting Mystery to reply back also, because it could make for excellent discussion.

MY IMPRESSIONS:


WHAT IT IS:

People will often read me commenting to the effect of "Attract the chick until she tries to get rapport with YOU"

This is the virtue, IMO, of any effective pickup method. One reason I've criticized SS is that it recommends FLUFFING the girl, and eliciting her values.

I disagree with this, as does Juggler.

For any FIELD EXPERIENCED person, I doubt I'd get disagreements on this.

If you ask girls questions PRIOR to having established VALUE in her eyes (even if its simple curiousity), she will become disinterested and often leave.

Juggler suggests making statements to solve this problem, which I agree with.


WHY IT WORKS:

Most guys who try to pickup a girl will walk up and start asking her questions to show interest in her. Very AFC.

The reason that Juggler method works is that by just making statements, you give the girl very little reason to leave.

In fact, you're disclosing things about yourself, and most decent people (yes, including HBs :)... ) will stay and listen.

If you become a good conversationalist, you will find yourself getting rapport with girls quickly. So long as you have the FUNDAMENTALS down, such as good bodylanguage and a charismatic/alpha presence, this rapport can translate into genuine attraction very fast.

By NOT asking questions right away, you give the girl no reason to walk away, and you AVOID generating bad emotional states in her such as "why is this guy hitting on me?" etc etc..

She'll then try to get rapport with YOU, and you can get into a conversation.

The best part, IMO, is that she feels like she EARNED it. I'm not sure if Juggler agrees, but that's what I've noticed while testing his way of doing things.

Also note, that JUGGLER IS CANNED. He simply uses CANNED stories from HIS LIFE and HIS VIEWS and OPINIONS.



WHERE DO I DISAGREE WITH JUGGLER:

I agree with EVERYTHING that Juggler says in terms of his METHOD. I feel that its a strong method with few flaws - for guys who have FUNDAMENTALS down.

I DISAGREE with what Juggler says about being genuine, as it does not cause problems for me - nor do I think that anything that I do is not genuine.

So, IOW, I agree and USE his METHOD, but disagree with the follow Juggler tenets:

-don't use negs
-don't bust on girls using C&F
-walk right up to the target, don't use group theory
-don't ever use other people's material (although as people have seen by how much new material I post, I make up almost all my own material, and most often from my own life.. but that's because I think that my material is BETTER, and not necessarily that I disagree with using other people's)


Why do I disagree?

NEGS:

In my experience, when you're dealing with ELITE calibre HBs, negs are what attracts.

I've picked up models and strippers, and they have always gravitated towards me the second that I negged them.

In my experience, girls of this level seem to INTERPRET negs as GENUINE BEHAVIOUR.

Why?

Because it doesn't occur to them that somebody would do this intentionally to pick them up. I have never met a girl who appeared to clue into this, and I have met many girls.


C&F:

It's been my experience, as well as David D's, CPowles, Mystery's, Rick H's, Zan's, Badboy's etc etc that C&F is a great way to attract women.

Busting on girls brings seems to bring out their 'girly-
girl' instinct.

I close girls like this ALL THE TIME, and it seems so obvious to me.

I'm actually surprised that I'd get any argument from this, since it seems so obvious to me. But I'm open-minded to hear what people have to say on this.


APPROACH THE TARGET DIRECTLY:

Juggler argues that the target will lose interest if you focus on her group, and actively ignore her. Perhaps she'll think that you hadn't the courage to approach her.

Instead, he suggests simply walking up to the target, and approaching her directly.

If you are GOOD, and can run an intriguing conversation, she will be interested, and her friends will see this. They will not cockblock.

I disagree with this, and although I would LIKE to believe it, I have tried it many times, and it has not worked.

I also would figure that I can run a Juggler style pickup as effectively as many of his students, because I play the game EVERYDAY, and I LIVE this stuff... I really like Juggler's posts, so I've worked hard on developing the skillsets that he's recommended.

So if I can't do it, after field testing this M.O. EXTENSIVELY, from where I'm sitting its just hard for me to get how anyone else could. Still, maybe some guys CAN attract an HB9 or 10 from a club, by approaching her directly, on a CONSISTENT basis. But I have never met anyone who could.. (I often still go at the target, but the friends must be addressed at some point)

It just doesn't seem to work like that.

Still, I appreciate that this can be a FRUITLESS debate, because Juggler will say "well dude, I can, so that's your problem", and I'll just say "ummm dude, that's nuts"

So I'm not really sure how to resolve this one over the internet. Maybe in Boston.

YES, in Boston, I would really like to see this, and I'll GLADLY eat my words if I could see this, because it would be amazing and I'd learn alot from it.. I'm still new to the game, and I never hesistate to admit when I'm wrong because to me that's a sign of PROGRESS in my game. So if any students will be there, please let me know if you see me there and show me what you learned from Juggler.


DON'T USE OTHER PEOPLE'S MATERIAL:

As I've stated in the "What is genuine" post, I have no problem using other people's material, and I get good results.

Although most of my material is my own, I have no problem using that of other people's.

This 'not genuine' thing doesn't affect me, because I generally don't like talking to girls about ANY topic that interests them, because my interests are typically not those shared by girls (see the post).

So I generally feel, and thus PROJECT, the same level of 'genuine', regardless of how I do pickup.

Also, my pickup method is that I am a COCKY BADBOY who likes to PARTY. This 'disclose my true self' thing is unnecessary for me to attract girls, because I am party guy in a college town, and this stuff is UNNECESSARY.

The girls here like COCKY BADBOY guys, and those who don't I just gauge it down which is very easy for me.

Another thought, Juggler, if you're reading this: What do you think of CPowles game (heavily canned)? Having winged with him, what are your thoughts?


MY MAIN SIMILARITIES AND DIFFERENCES FROM JUGGLER:

My pickup style is similar to Juggler's in that I make statements, and don't ask questions.

Also, that I have stories about my life, which I will hook her to ask about.

Like Juggler, I don't use gimmicks. However, having seen many people, such Toecutter, Mystery, etc, use them effectively, my opinion is that gimmicks are GOOD.

I am just too lazy to learn them myself because I am good at maintaining centre of attention without them. So I don't use them because I don't need them, but see nothing wrong with using them personally. They seem to be fun, and girls like them. So long as you can CONVERT the attention that they give you into attraction (which any PUA should be able to, I think) then they are fine, IMO.

Still, I don't use them, so perhaps I shouldn't talk. I'm speaking only from what I've seen others do.

Also, all of my canned material are either C&F lines and jokes (NOT canned routines), or they are stories from my life (like what Juggler suggests), which I agree with. I suppose I am similar to Juggler in that sense, because he has his GF-test, 'life as a movie', and other similar stuff he'll use.

I'm also similar because I use stories from my own life. However, I DIFFER in MOTIVATION for this, because I use my own stories only because they are EASIER TO REMEMBER, and NOT because I think that they are more genuine.

I've never had a girl figure that I wasn't genuine on occassions that I have tinkered with other people's material, because I am a PARTY GUY and girls want FUN and PARTY. So they don't really care either way.




-TD

I agree on the talk about yourself not hers. Now depending where you are at some point in time if she wants to share her life with you, I would listen. Yet the interview of the girl, it sucks.

Get them to ask you questions, qualifying you which means that they have some basic form of attraction, answer them the right way and she will start to volunteer information to you about herself, qualifying herself. Once that last process starts meet, kino and fuck you already seduced her, now it is only a matter of overcoming resistance.

About canned routines etc. If you can deliver them as to appear genuine, you are home free. If not, oooppss. Also my fear when guys read routines here that include sample lines the girls uses to react, is that if the girl doesnt react the way the canned routine proscribed, that they are lost. Especially when doing canned routines, you have to very flexibel to take it to anywhere depending on how the girl reacts. Don't just eject because your routine failed.

About SS. SS is using NLP to put embedded commands, ambiguities etc. into a girls mind. The problem with SS is that this is the goal and not a method so the whole encounter is framed towards this. This makes for the bad way of handeling things. Now doing the NLP stuff as a method while doing your own game works wonders. It's amazing what you can get away with. I have debriefed girls who encountered a few of the top SS guys, and it really hits home. One girl told me that she became very hot and had wild erotic dreams about the guy. Now she didnt fuck with him. SS doesnt bring the closing techniques, it depends too much on the girl acting on her newly commanded feelings. Again that while the techniques are just that: the techniques, greatness comes with the level of skill the techniques are used. In the end only your level of skill matters not the techniques.

What I learned from Juggler besides the talk about you and not her, was his way of having full emotional relations with his girls. In my understanding a lot of Juggler's use of genuine has to do with genuine emotions. It is one thing to deliver IC smoothlessly, it's another if not only the girl, but you too feels the IC. To lay the girl it is probably better not to have genuine emotions, but for the quality of your own life, for me, it matters a lot. The trick off course is to have the emotions without it hurting your ability to lay the girl.

Proto

TD will you PLLLEEEASSSEE STOP working so hard at this shit.. trying to find the time to read / use it all and learn from it.. your building an exponential curve that i feel i'm never going to get up.. because it keeps churning new stuff out at a faster and faster rate...

Keep up the good work !

AC

"Nada ha cambiado, excepto mi actitud, por eso todo ha cambiado"

What's up, TD.

I HAD to be on the board when you posted this, LOL! I'll type up a few things that jump out at me to comment on for now.

On 4/14/03 7:02:00 AM, TylerDurden wrote:

>People will often read me
>commenting to the effect of
>"Attract the chick until she
>tries to get rapport with YOU"
>
>This is the virtue, IMO, of
>any effective pickup method.

Agreed.

>One reason I've criticized SS
>is that it recommends FLUFFING
>the girl, and eliciting her
>values.
>
>I disagree with this, as does
>Juggler.
>
>For any FIELD EXPERIENCED
>person, I doubt I'd get
>disagreements on this.

Agreed.

>If you ask girls questions
>PRIOR to having established
>VALUE in her eyes (even if its
>simple curiousity), she will
>become disinterested and often
>leave.
>
>Juggler suggests making
>statements to solve this
>problem, which I agree with.

Agreed.

>WHY IT WORKS:
>
>Most guys who try to pickup a
>girl will walk up and start
>asking her questions to show
...